2 It would be better for him if a millstone [as large as one turned by a donkey] were hung around his neck and he were hurled into the sea, than . John 12:47-49 KJV (47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, And also consider in the next passage the birds of prey where they are doing the devouring and the sequence of events. Treasury of Scripture. "'" pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. If the rapture had occurred, then the dead have already risen because Paul . Luke 17:37 . mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I know this has been years since the question was asked, but in case dont have clarity or others see this, I wanted to answer. The people being taken away in Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36 are being judged and destroyed. [31] [32] [33]IGN deu 8 de 10, dizendo "Atomic Heart uma tentativa altamente imaginativa, inspirada no atompunk, de continuar de onde BioShock parou.." At that height the eagles have perfect vision and can see a mouse on the ground and we too will have perfect vision, we will understand how all the way the Lord has led us. tree is known by his fruit. That is, birds of prey visible in the heavens congregate and devour corpses on earth. Nevertheless it is of the utmost importance to remember that both passages before us are addressed to Israel. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. (15) And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, One obvious key word in our passage is "day"and "days," hmera. In Luke 17, as you can see there is no indication whatsoever that the final separation of the saved and lost will be done in any secretive manner. Revelation 6:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Isaiah 11:4 _____ Rebuttals 12. replied to them, Where the dead body[e] is, there the vultures will Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:40-42). In each case of separation, the ones taken were saved and the ones left were the ones destroyed. me no more; (11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is His answer clearly reveals that all who were left would be dead and their bodies would be food for the eagles. It has come to my attention, and as I understand it, that those who insist that the rapture verses of Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36 are, in their opinion, a judgment of the unsaved, are saying that the Greek word "paralambn" - as found in another passage of Scripture - can carry the connotation of judgment. First, I found Matthew 24:28almost verbatim. We who believe must ARISE and go from here and snatch others from the coming fire as well. 36 But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. The NKJV translates the Greek word duoas two men in Luke 17:34, but the NASB does not. Revelation 19:21 KJV (21) And the remnant were slain with the sword this place: (13) For we will destroy this place, because the cry of @Charlie I appreciate your research in finding a similar question; I searched it, but originally didn't see the Luke text, although the Matthew records almost the same discussion. 35 There will be two women grinding together. So, AFTER the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return like lightning to rapture believers and to destroy sinners. Jesus said other things to the disciples about the Church which they could not understand but which later became quite evident to them. Here is a blog post that explains it in more detail: https://overcomingthetribulation.com/carcasses-eagles-and-taken/. The passage in Luke 17 appears to be parallel to Matthew 24. Matthew 13:30 . For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Perhaps it means that the ones taken will be disenfranchised, their goods confiscated and their rights terminated as a "felony". them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath First, if we read the three verses leading up to this text, we find this: As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. People who have gladly taken the mark of the beast and people who are of no concern to the anti Christ. The Paralambn of Matthew 24:40-41 & Luke 17:34-36. by Mark A. Becker. 37 "Where, Lord?" they asked. In other words, the image of "taking" may have the wider meaning of destruction as in the "taking" of life, which does not have to include the idea of rapture or snatching away, since there will be seven months of burying human remains after the supernatural intervention of the Lord to save Israel (Ezek 39:12). This means that both Luke 17:30-35 and Matthew 24:37-41 are events that will occur after the second coming of Christ. However, I am dissatisfied with the answers given, as they are either "off the wall", or "I don't know-but I think this". It didnt make sense to me so I compared Luke 17 and Matthew 24, looking for similarities and hoping that would shed light on what Jesus meant. (Matthew 24:28). Luke 17 provides further powerful proof of the order of gatherings, as if the harmony of several passages so far were not enough. Therefore, it is implied that the two are women. Jesus turned to His Disciples and indicated that they would not live to see the kingdom for He must first suffer many things and be rejected of the nation. We are to keep His sacrifice in the presence of their persecutions by not returning evil for their evil. knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will The Greek word for left is aphiemi which literally means to send and is used of a man putting away his wife in divorce (1 Corinthians 7:11-13). Who is the second? Rapture Doesnt Luke 17:34-36 support the secret rapture belief? Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the We are to also not look behind to return evil for their evil that will certainly come out of their mouths as one leaves the churches of the unbelievers. It is taken to mean that one day believers will be secretly "raptured" away and the rest will be "left behind." What's the problem here, you ask? The Greek word duo simply means two two of anything. By itself, this might not mean that the two people were men, for Greek (as in most languages) can use male words and pronouns to refer generically to "people" whether they are male or female. them, Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered On the other hand, Daniel Dahlberg pointed out an alternative translation, e.g., King James Bible: And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? Time will tell! All Rights Reserved. Since those who subscribe to amillennialism don't believe in rapture, how do they interpret Luke 17:30-34. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. for His Son Jesus, "The Messiah" (Matthew 22:1-14 NASB), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A1-14&version=NET;NKJV, Those abandoned are those who are not spiritually awake, they get consumed in their selfish lifestyle, as did people in Noah's days:" For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. Antichrist will be slain with his False Prophet and they will be given their resurrection bodies and cast alive into the lake of fire. In verse 26, Jesus resembled the days of Noah with His second coming: And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Unfortunately these are the people that have missed or not heeded the warning of Jesus to "flee to the mountains" after the unveiling of the abomination of desolation. judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. What was the role of Timothy in the infant church? Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (Luke 17:2830). at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not I tell you, in that night there shall be two. The verb grinding is feminine. Write by: . Check your inbox or spam folder to confirm your subscription. Luke 17:34 The believers are left and will be with Christ on the earth during the Millennium. Where will they be taken? It is my purpose to demonstrate that this is quite unscriptural. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever 2) The Great Tribulation at Point 3. A lot seems to be happening in a very short scope of time. Is it possible to create a concave light? Brian Bell notes that "this is the last teaching of a long Sabbath day that started in Lk 14:1. There we discover Luke 17:30-35 and Matthew 24:37-41 are illustrations of the Judgment of the Nations, which is also called the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). I like Joseph's answer, which if no other answers turn in will receive my check. I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. In one case those left are judged and in the other case those left are blessed! Mark 3:4, Luke 6:9 & Matthew 10:28. It has come to my attention, and as I understand it, that those who insist that the rapture verses of Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36 are, in their opinion, a judgment of the unsaved, are saying that the Greek word "paralambn" - as found in another passage of Scripture - can carry the connotation of judgment. Please. John 16:7-13 KJV (7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is As for the "where question," Jesus' apparently cryptic answer is really quite straightforward. (8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of The point is that people were occupied with activities and were not aware or willing to believe Noah, and that will happen to the last generation before Christ returns. One commentator states that Nowhere does the Olivet Discourse deal with the Rapture. the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. See texts below. They will "weary" themselves to get you to speak evil back so that they are justified in their own eyes. One will be taken and the other left. So those taken were killed in flood. This chart shows the flow of events as: 1) The Antichrist at Point 1. - King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan (10) But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house judge him in the last day. This will "torment" them. Please see, Welcome and thank you for your contribution. de Lectis Veter. Luke makes allusion to the same people but instead of "taken" (as appears in the NASB of Matthew) Luke mentions the "destruction" of those at the time of the flood (Luke 17:27, NASB). Is Matthew 24:30-31 about the rapture or second coming. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. rev2023.3.3.43278. Luke 17:34-37 (NIV84) 34 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Matthew 24 is answering a question by Jewish Disciples who asked about the end of the age and the second coming of Christ and some have assumed that the Rapture is not relevant in that context. You welcome my friend. For those who believe that Luke 17:34-36 is not speaking of the rapture but of the judgment after Christ's Second Coming and that those taken are the wicked, I must point out a few things and conclude with a determining factor. for out of the abundance of the heart That was Jesus context when He said it would be like this at the coming of the Son of Man. out of the way. Now when the Lord gave the Disciples this sign in Luke chapter 17 they understood that Jesus was talking about the last days and that some people would suddenly disappear but they didnt know anything about the Rapture and the logical question was asked, Where Lord? i.e. There is no doubt the disciples were referring to the ones taken. It will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot; days of violence and every mans imaginations and thoughts only evil continually! It would make sense that those taken will be devoured. righteousness, and of judgment: (9) Of sin, because they believe not together; one will be taken and one will be left. For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. It can be just as you wrote or the elect in the wilderness Rev 12:6, Ez 20:35 eagles being angels. Some will hear and believe and come out from among the unbelievers (the dead body) who will not believe in the revealed Word of Truth when they hear it. the city. Here is Matthew 24:37-39. And Noah and Lot are used as examples of those left behind and surviving destruction; Noah survived the flood but everyone else was destroyed and Lot survived the fiery brimstone but everyone else was destroyed. And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together (Luke 17:34-37). They will show that they do not know the Lord by their evil words and actions against those who will receive the Word of Truth in faith. One will be taken and the other left. (36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, One will be taken and the other left. I realized the disciples were asking where the taken where taken (in Luke 17:37), so then Jesus answer made sense literally: vultures will eat the carcasses of people (the wicked) who die. We must hear the command and ARISE (just like Lot was commanded to "ARISE" and go from Sodom) from the dead body of unbelievers and let us go from here.their churches. place; for the LORD will destroy this city. We have 3 groups of people here. I have watched eagles circling, rising higher and higher. Real Answers. When the Lord comes to open up the Scriptures to our hearing ears, there is going to be a major upset among the churches of men who will hear His voice (in the Spirit of Truth) and not believe and agree with what He says as they will seek to defend their denominational interpretationstheir own thoughts and ways. (14) And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons In addition, the goat nations who receive the mark of the Beast during the Tribulation, will be brought before the throne of Christs glory and be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). About UsContact UsPrayer RequestsPrivacy Policy, Latest AnswersBible LessonsBibleAsk LIVEOnline Bible. 2) The Gospels must be interpreted as addressed to Israel and not the Church because a new dispensation of the Church had not begun at the time. heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. If I can be shown to be wrong from scripture then I will be happy to be corrected. For more information about this event, we must read Matthew 25:31-46. This was not an answer given in the previous discussion of this question; I basically agree with your conclusion-there is no other way of interpreting 'eagle' except as a bird of prey, consequently, those 'taken' by the eagles are where eagles go to devour their flesh-certainly no picture of anything that looks like heaven. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. It is quite clear that both scriptures are about the same event and that it is related to the warnings of the end of the age and the Lords return. Further, Jesus teaches that the ones left will be destroyed completely not have seven years of another chance to repent as the secret rapture belief teaches. "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever" (Revelation 11:15b). 52:49. Two women shall be grinding together; the one, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers. Not to a rotting carcase but to the living body that rose from the dead and is alive for evermore! And he said unto therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. ncdu: What's going on with this second size column? Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy Again, these fowl in Revelation 19 are the multitude of words of the unbelievers who will not believe in the true sayings of God when the Scriptures are opened up by the Lord to our hearing ears. First, this teaching does not align with the separation of the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. Luke 17:34-35, The disciples are interested to know about those taken away and its location, And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for professors, theologians, and those interested in exegetical analysis of biblical texts. Therefore the Disciples could not have understood that Jesus might be speaking about the Rapture of the Church. But in Luke the body is a living saving body. and hath nothing in me.*. ucla environmental science graduate program; four elements to the doctrinal space superiority construct; woburn police scanner live. Lot, Hast thou here any besides? In this case, people who are taken maybe the living ones. 25 'Ye are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant that God made unto our fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall be blessed all the families of the earth; @ Constantthin: On reading your profile I noticed Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter" (NASB) God rightfully keeps some things secret from mankind until it is due to reveal them. Any duration. Welcome to the forum. When and where does the Goat and Sheep judgment occur? We must be faithful to the context which is Israel in the last days. The passage here in Luke 17 in many ways parallels that of Matthew 24. When you get a chance, please take the. The Greek word "a-e-toi" ( ) can be translated as "eagles" as well as "vultures," however in terms of context the word "eagles" is by far the better - as in NKJV. Commentators have noted that Jesus employed a proverbial saying to reply to his disciples' question, "Where, Lord?" (Luke 17:37a); however, they differ on what the proverb means in this context. Matthew 24:40-41; Luke 17:26-30, 34-36 I was pleased to see the CEB use the word "disciple" to refer to the mysterious young man who appears in Mark 14:51-52, after the 12 disciples desert Jesus and run away. Is the Goat and Sheep judgment also the White Throne judgment? Luke 17:34 Context Crossref Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke says, the Flood came and destroyed them all, and Matthew says, the Flood came and took them all away. To be taken was to be destroyed, or die. The "brightness of His presence" = the keeping of His sacrifice (the Lamb) in our lives in the persecution by not returning evil for their evil. We are to leave it all behind for His sake and the good news of our salvation that we hear in the Word of Truth spoken to our hearing ears from Heaven above. All Videos Images Commentaries Devotionals Other Translations Sermons Related Scriptures Podcasts Blogs. . Also check out the words wherever and where in Matt 24:28 and Luke 17:37. After evoking the Great Tribulation in verse 1, the second verse of the song is a poetic restatement of Luke 17:34 and Matthew 24:40: A man and wife asleep in bed,/ She hears a noise and turns her head he's gone;/ I wish we'd all been ready. Luke 16. I will answer it myself, if no one else has a satisfactory answer, but I would like to keep it open, just in case. Jesus: being symbolised at the dead copse, point of interest, (,,not meaning/saying, He's a dead Copse) Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together., The eagles are farsighted birds , spiritually far sighted individuals are likened to eagles and will be taken along "for salvation" and will gather together where the body is," to the Spiritual Wedding Feast prepared by the King - "God." Luke 17:34 in all English translations. (34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.. There will be two women grinding together. Therefore, we do not know if Jesus was referring to two men, two women or just two people, such as a married couple. "And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? So He said to them, We would do well to expand the context of the passage under consideration by going to verse 20 in the same chapter, where the Pharisees questioned Jesus about when the kingdom of God was coming. Who is being "taken" in Matthew 24:40-41? When Jesus referred to the days of the Son of Man, He was speaking about His second coming, that is, the second coming of Christ. So it is not a valid argument to reason that because Jesus was speaking to Jewish disciples before Pentecost He could not be referring to the Rapture of the Church. one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Jesus indicates that the world will be evil like the days of Noah and like the days of Lot. Points 10 and 11 (Luke 17:34-35) say that "one will be taken and the other left" and this is the Rapture. This is symbolically represented in two examples. It is expedient that we go away.following Him out. unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be Ezekiel 39:12. This is how it is in the parable of the wheat and tares (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43). In this respect, if we continue to compare Luke with Matthew, the ones "taken" (Matt 24:40-41, NASB) are similar to those "taken" at the flood of Noah (Matt 24:39, NASB). At the rapture, of course, believers are taken. As the men of Sodom, they will weary themselves to find the door in their spiritual blindness brought upon them for their unbelief in the hearing and resistance of Word of Truth. sent us to destroy it. Eagles go for bodies, vultures go for corpses. At the very same moment the head of the Revived Roman Empire will sign a 7 year peace treaty and Jews will be able to rebuild their temple. We know it is the Rapture of the Church because we have Pauls epistles that explain it. It is clear that the "rapture" is for those to be devoured. those who are in the country enter her.". They can rise to 10,000 feet almost out of sight. Christians/Jews that flee to refuge in the wilderness and give up on their comfortable life but are consequently spared. For example, it is important to notice that in Luke 17:22 we are told that Jesus referred to the days of the Son of Man, and He did it again in Luke 17:30. , 37 "And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? So He said to 17:37 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU), 37 The Lord shall consume them with the Spirit of His mouth as they will gnash their teeth in rage against what they hear Him saying and will speak all kinds of evil in resistance which will destroy themselves. The answer is no! You have to change eagles into vultures and the body into a carcass. together", 37 "Then[a] the disciples[b] said[c] to him, Where,[d] Lord? He Luke 17:34 describes what will happen after the judgment. (35) A good man out of the good treasure of the horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both If the allusion is also literal, then these birds of prey may refer to Rev 19:17-18 and Ezek 39:17-20, but in such a case, the salient meaning of this passage in context would remain the same (i.e., judgment on earth evident from heaven). and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in being evil, speak good things? Clarify Share Report Asked July 23 2021 Jack Gutknecht Answers (3) This is the great judgment/wrath at Christ's Second Coming, when God kills His enemies and instructs scavenger-birds to gather and eat their corpses (Revelation 19:17-21). We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. (11) And they smote the men that were he might be revealed in his time. The words quoted in Luke 17 come after the Lord had answered the Pharisees question about the timing of the Kingdom of God. But he seemed as one that Now in Luke 17:33 Jesus says "Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it", In other words the people "taken" are believers (like Lot's wife) who unfortunately are seeking to preserve their life by sadly being attached like Lot's wife was to her lifestyle in Sodom. (37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? Matthew 12:33-37 KJV (33) *Either make the tree good, and his fruit Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. In the same way it would be wrong to say Jesus was not speaking of the Church when He spoke of other sheep which are not of this fold. Thus eagles in Luke 17:37 could refer angels. That says, "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. Thanks for contributing an answer to Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange! We must also leave the churches of the unbelievers in this coming time or be consumed in the iniquity of the city as we may render evil for their evil if we stay too long. He replied, Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.. In this passage, Jesus is referring to those who would be taken, and those who would be "Left Behind". The word for eagle occurs 4 times in the New Testament and always from the same Greek word. (32) Remember Lot's wife. How do I align things in the following tabular environment? So what does it mean that "the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city"? Like the lightning that flashes in the sky, these phenomena in the heavens "illuminate" the Day of the Lord when the spiritually dead are judged on earth. The phrase "the end of the age," of course, comes from Jesus' "Great Commission" found in Matthew 28, specifically verse 20. Luke 17:30-33(NASB). This answered prayer was what caused me to doubt Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and then I became convinced its impossible. Luke 17:34 (NKJV). Donations to this ministry aretax-deductible. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. This is definately an idiom or para-phrased statement!. Verse 37 in Luke immediately follows the description of the rapture of believers (verses 34-36). It is so important for us today to make known the truth of the Rapture to the Jewish people. So, AFTER the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return like lightning to rapture believers and to destroy sinners. (12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot